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[2009-4-12] 評論2009-2-12新聞〈一改敵意教廷:達爾文演化論符教義〉
2009/04/12 19:18:19瀏覽1267|回應13|推薦12

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中時這則新聞的標題是〈一改敵意教廷:達爾文進化論符教義〉,但內容裡衹有“演化論”這個詞而沒有“進化論”這個詞,可知標題裡的“進”字是編輯改的。

英語詞“evolution”的意思衹是演變、變化、邅變,基本詞義跟“change”差不多。有個生物學術語“progressive evolution”,這才是“進化”。漢語譯者當初直接用了日譯“進化”,這是個必須改正的歷史錯誤。

大陸還維持“熊貓”,還維持“進化論”,大體而言這是所涉廣泛的心態問題。

我轉貼這則新聞,但是我不能誤導我的讀者。我的轉貼標題把“進化論”改正成“演化論”。

這則新聞很重要。我讀出三個重點:第一、教廷不再反對達爾文的“演化論”。第二、教廷並沒有“接受(accepted)”達爾文的“天擇論”。第三、教廷企圖藉著矇混不懂當今高中程度的生物演化學的人來延續耶穌教的生存。

【生物會演化】是在達爾文起家之前就已經被生物學者普遍接受的觀點。“達爾文演化論”的核心是“達爾文-華萊士天擇理論”。生物的天擇演化機制是唯物論,無腦無心無神,演化的起點如此,演化的過程如此。達爾文自己很清楚他的天擇理論 -- 而不是【生物會演化】的理論 -- 與耶穌教的基本教義徹底衝突。這個徹底衝突今天的教廷一樣清楚。

“智慧設計論”以及類似的說法適用於任何有神論。科學發展到今天,這些說法是有神論的出路,但卻顯然不利於任何宗教信仰的發展,因為唯有“幕前的”personal god才能吸引信徒。在耶穌教,“智慧設計論”會讓由創世紀和伊甸園故事所奠下的神學基礎完蛋。這應該是教廷本來打算禁止“智慧設計論”的原因。現在教廷決定漠視它,這可以為本教尊神留下一條後退之路,這是明智的。

教廷認為“智慧設計論”在神學及科學都很貧弱,這個看法是正確的。美國耶穌教徒近來對“智慧設計論”的支持風起雲湧,情況如果不是這些人的知識和能力太差,就是反映了這些耶穌教信眾的神明信仰已經被科學逼到沒路可走了。


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http://news.chinatimes.com/2007Cti/2007Cti-News/2007Cti-News-Content/0,4521,110504+112009021200324,00.html
一改敵意教廷:達爾文進化論符教義
中國時報 2009-02-12 【潘勛/綜合報導】


     天主教廷梵蒂岡「宗座文化委員會」主席拉瓦西總主教表示,雖然以往天主教會對達爾文的演化論持敵意態度,但演化的觀念實可上溯到西元四世紀的聖奧古斯都及中世紀的聖多瑪斯,其實是與基督教義相符的。在教宗支持下,梵蒂岡將在三月間召開學術大會,紀念達爾文《物種源始》問世一百五十周年。

     英國《每日電訊報》十一日報導,羅馬「宗座聖十字教堂大學」神學教授坦齊拉─尼提神父表示,四世紀的神學家聖奧古斯都雖沒聽過演化論這個詞彙,但曉得大魚吃小魚,生命的形態會「緩慢地與時俱變」;中世紀的聖多瑪斯也有類似觀察。

梵蒂岡有意淡化智慧設計論

     教廷當局另淡化「智慧設計論」(Intelligent Design)此一理念;智慧設計論主張,生命如此繁複,必然有「更高力量」創造產生。

     籌辦人表示,在「宗教葛列葛大學」舉行的大會席間,原本打算禁止智慧設計論,認為此說「神學及科學都很貧弱」,後來決定在大會邊陲末節討論該學說,但只當成「文化現象」,而非科學或神學要務。

     羅馬天主教會的態度對釐清目前美國與其他地區「演化論」與「創造論」的爭議很有幫助。

助釐清演化論與創造論爭議

     拉瓦西總主教十日表示,羅馬天主教會從未正式譴責過達爾文的理論;他另指出五十多年前,教宗庇護十二世便描述,演化是紮實的科學方法,可了解人類的發展;「事實上,我們說演化出來的世界,一如上帝創造的世界」。另外,前教宗若望保祿二世在一九九六年也表示,演化論「不止是假說」。

     拉瓦西總主教承認,過去天主教會對達爾文並不友善,原因是他的理論表面上與舊約聖經《創世紀》的描述有所衝突。但拉瓦西十日表示,生物演化論與基督教的神創萬物觀點其實互補不悖。

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Lohengrin
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Last round.
2009/04/20 16:25
科學上, 一件事是不是[可信可靠], 是要證明的. 科學規定怎樣才算證明.  此證明的責任在宣稱那件事的人, 而懷疑這件事的人不需要提出任何證明.  這才是科學的精髓.

有人宣稱有[可信可靠]的聖誕老人, 宣稱這是個[事實].  需要提出證明的是這個宣稱者, 而懷疑這個宣稱的人不需要提出任何證明.  對針灸效果的宣稱亦如此. 

Sorry, I don't mean to badger the point.  I will truly stop now.
SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-21 10:59 回覆:

我的意思很清楚:這個SCF求治他自己的過敏性鼻炎的經驗別人是可以參考的,當然也可以起疑。如果起疑,相信頭腦清楚而且從不輕信任何教條系統或聞起來可疑的東西的有推土機風格的科學家SCF至少不會在這種事情上造謊的人最好明確指出本事況中的某個什麼可疑之處或者明確要求SCF在某些方面再多給一點事況資訊,最好這樣,對不對?

智能正常而且受過教育的成年人裡面萬分之九千九百九十九基於自己的常識、基本知識、邏輯能力、和人生經驗認定不存在聖誕老人這麼一個傳說人物,在這樣的現實情況下,如果有人宣稱有[可信可靠]的聖誕老人,宣稱這是個[事實],那麼這個宣稱者最好提出證明,而且任何懷疑這個宣稱的人不會被任何第三者認為有必要提出任何證明以支持他的懷疑。

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Lohengrin
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Continue
2009/04/20 13:34

Acupuncture and homeopathy have no physiological bases, hence like Creationism, are completely outside of science, hence, are extraordinary claims.  Both failed the standard double blind tests.

To paraphrase Steve Weinberg:  The evidence for acupuncture and homeopathy seems to me to be considerably weaker than the evidence for cold fusion and I don't believe in cold fusion.

By the way, Weinberg's essay is just as moving and convincing as Dobzhansky's, albeit a bit extreme.  I think you might like it:

http://frank.mtsu.edu/~rshoward/weinberg.pdf

Then there is James Randi's website:

http://www.randi.org/site/

And the "million dollar" experiment on homeopathy:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml

--------------------------------------------

It is extraordinary that our roles in this discussion have reversed.

SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-20 16:02 回覆:

"It is extraordinary that our roles in this discussion have reversed."

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I don't think so.

I quite understand what you've been trying so hard to say from the very beginning. You repeated over and again and I tended to give you the same reply. I don't think you've ever grasped my point from the very beginning. You've worked too hard, better have a rest before going over all these rounds again for a refreshing mind. ^_____^

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SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-20 16:08 回覆:

For your convenience, here is the very beginning.

SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-16 11:15 回覆: 刪除

你對針灸和中藥的譏評有點過火。我有過敏性鼻炎,西醫動刀有危險,西藥聊以治標,針灸有效程度在"聊以治標"之上,甚至能改善平常狀況,後來說是要扎一處我不敢讓他扎的地方,這等於我拒絕根治。這是我的經驗。

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Lohengrin
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Two more rounds: On scientific skepticism.
2009/04/20 13:32

I heard you very well and responded to them many times also:  Science sets the rule of evidence.  The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claims; moreover, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. 

I don't know what you meant by 可靠可信的個案.  Scientifically, 可靠可信 needs to be proved according to this scientific rule of evidence.  If someone wants to prove that Santa Claus really exists, he or she has the burden of proof, not the person who is skeptical about this extraordinary claim.  Moreover repeated "witnesses" of Santa by millions of children do not make it 可靠可信.  This is not a joke, but the central point of the double blind test in medicine.  The same goes with claims of acupuncture, homeopathy and millions of repeated claims of miracle by religious people.  If one runs a flaw experiment repeatedly, one is likely to get the wrong conclusion repeatedly.

Science is open minded, but there is nothing revolutionary about this.  The medieval church was open-minded enough to accept all kinds of claims of miracle by medieval peasants.  What is truly revolutionary about science is the Scientific Skepticism--setting up rigorous standards and say: Show me your evidence!

SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-20 15:52 回覆:

我第N次重複:"一件可靠可信的個案就是一個可靠可信的事實。你如果懷疑某一件個案為不可靠不可信,不妨明說,並指明其不可靠不可信之處何在,最好再附上查驗方法。"

尊重可靠可信的個案是科學態度。The buildup of the edifice of science relies on such attitude。

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Lohengrin
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Well, maybe one more short round.
2009/04/19 16:08
Science sets the rules of evidence and accepts whatever claims that manage to pass these rules.  Acupuncture and homeopathy failed this test.  If science is to "respect" 1/10 of the claims of miracle, whether from homeopathy or acupuncture or Falungong on the internet, it will simply collapse.

Some beliefs are more fundamental, but they are harmless and meaningless for all practical purposes.  For example, the Catholic church has three fundamental tenets (or infallibles):  The immaculate conception of Mary, the divinity of Christ and the Trinity of God.  Now these may be fundamental, but they hardly matter for all practical purposes.  The Catholic faith can easily be founded on 一氣化三清 as it is on 三位一體 (Trinity).

On the other hand, some beliefs may not be fundamental, but have far reaching practical ramifications.  Acupuncture is just one such system.  People have died because the needles inadvertently punctured some vital organs.  Homeopathy is harmless, but it may prevent the patient from seek medical care in time.  In a similar vain, the Catholic anti-contraception stand is far less fundamental than its three basic tenets, but it has far serious consequences in the real world of Africa.

As for the Chinese concept of 氣, I don't see any scientific evidence for it.  Yes, Yoga masters can perform extraordinary feats, but I don't think these feats violate any known physical laws.  The bottom line is that things like 經絡, 氣 and Creationism are the same in the sense that they are completely outside the edifice of science.
SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-20 11:52 回覆:

我第N次重複:"一件可靠可信的個案就是一個可靠可信的事實。你如果懷疑某一件個案為不可靠不可信,不妨明說,並指明其不可靠不可信之處何在,最好再附上查驗方法。"

尊重可靠可信的個案是科學態度。The buildup of the edifice of science relies on such attitude。

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Lohengrin
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Continue
2009/04/17 16:20
There is a famous saying that goes like: We are open minded and rational until it hits some fundamental value(s) we really really believe.  I don't want to berate the point.  I have my own hidden biases and placebos and placebos work best if we believe them.  Discussions on religion and other important values people believe in are always sensitive and can easily hurt.  I apologize if I did.  This is not my intent.  In fact, my intent is the opposite:

To adapt a saying of Darwin:  Let everyone believe whatever he or she can, as long as such belief does no harm to themselves or to others.  Buddhism and mainstream Christianity are by and large such a belief systems.
SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-18 02:40 回覆:

老羅你的修養真好。不過我必須說清楚:中醫中藥針灸這些離我的價值系統很遠。這些屬於生活上的實用事物,我是實用主義者 --- 在這一點上我是美國人~~~ ^_^ ~~~我搭公車時絕對會讓座給老弱病孕,但有位子空出來我絕不會站著,但我不會跟人搶座位,我向來如此。我可以讓別人佔便宜,我不佔別人便宜,我沒有虛假的風度,我也不虐待自己,這是我的一貫風格。而且,你知道我不呆,雖然有時候很懶~~~ ^+++++^

羅馬耶穌教直到現在還堅決反對墮胎堅決反對使用避孕套,他們在非洲已經害了上億的窮困可憐的人,而且為地球村製造大麻煩。這有罪!!!但是他們堅決不認罪,可惡極了。

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Lohengrin
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Cultural context of common senses.
2009/04/17 16:17
Common senses have cultural contexts.  There is as much scientific bases for acupuncture as there is for 血型星座那些經驗, at least with 血型.  The "effectiveness" of acupuncture may be a "common sense" to many Chinese, but the effectiveness of homeopathy and 血型星座那些經驗 are just as much a "common sense" to the ancient and some modern Europeans.

When you say that 每次的效果都可以驗證, you are providing a testimony.  I fully respect that.  However, in order to prove scientifically that this is not a placebo effect, one needs to show that (1) it has a scientific/physiological explanation.  Short of that, one needs to show (2) clinical effectiveness.  I have explained in my previous response that acupuncture failed both.  Looking at this situation from a purely medical perspective, one then has to conclude that this is a placebo effect.  That is why modern medicine does not accept acupuncture.

I think the similarity between acupuncture and hypnotism is more than an analogy.  I think acupuncture may be a form of hypnotism, in the sense that both are psychological phenomena, but this is almost the definition of placebo.
---
UDN is complaining about the length of my article again, so I will continue on the next post, but that will be my last.
SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-18 02:10 回覆:

"Common senses have cultural contexts." --- 我那則回應很短,請注意我說"這些都是常識"那一段話的完整內容!

"There is as much scientific bases for acupuncture as there is for 血型星座那些經驗, at least with 血型." --- 每一次針灸施作個案的結果都可以被證明為有效或無效,但血型星座那些不行。血型星座那些沒有技術,沒有施作,也沒有結果,純粹是"就科技意義而言屬於無聊之舉"的歸納,衹要"搞得圓轉"就好。

"The "effectiveness" of acupuncture may be a "common sense" to many Chinese, but ..." --- 我那則回應很短,請注意我說"這些都是常識"那一段話的完整內容!

"When you say that 每次的效果都可以驗證, you are providing a testimony. " --- NO!你錯得離譜。

"However, in order to prove scientifically that this is not a placebo effect, one needs to show... I have explained in my previous response that acupuncture failed both." --- 我重複:"一件可靠可信的個案就是一個可靠可信的事實。你如果懷疑某一件個案為不可靠不可信,不妨明說,並指明其不可靠不可信之處何在,最好再附上查驗方法。"

"I think acupuncture may be a form of hypnotism, in the sense that both are psychological phenomena, but this is almost the definition of placebo." --- 一、You've stretched too much and too far. 二、你論政不是這樣的。WHY?三、催眠是心理施作沒錯,但並不是安慰劑。四、有個有名的美國催眠師催眠不了我。^_^

UDN一直不拿網誌回應者當人,這是他們的心理disorder,他們需要扎針。^+++++^

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Lohengrin
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Cultural context
2009/04/17 15:26
Acupuncture is founded on the theory of 經脈 and 穴位.  There is no 經脈 and 穴位 has no physiological significance from the perspective of modern medicine.  Clinically, there have been double blind studies:  Acupuncture is an invasive procedure.  In one study, the procedure for the control group is substituted with a hard but non-invasive pinch.  In another, the needle point was deliberately placed off the supposed 穴位.  The studies found no statistical difference.

I already said that I meant you no offense and said that WE understand fully the the placebo effect.  However, we all grow up in our respective cultural and religious environments.  This makes us who we are, consciously and subconsciously.  As adults, we respond accordingly to these particular elements, the Chinese to Buddhism and 金庸 while the Europeans to Christianity and Arthurian legends.

When we look across cultures, we see the particular cultural elements more clearly.  Monotheistic Christianity and homeopathy are a Western/Middle Eastern phenomenon and it is not surprising that many Chinese do not respond to them.  Buddhism, Taoism, tiger bones, acupuncture are in the same category if one looks at them from the European perspective.  The fact is that we tend to view our own cultural and religious particulars as more factually true than we view other people's cultural and religious particulars--Homeopathy for the Europeans and acupuncture for the Chinese.

Of course, this is not absolute.  Plenty of Asians respond to Christianity with an Asian spin and many European are attracted to Eastern mysticism.   

In the Basilica in Washington DC, there are as many different statues of Madonna as there are cultures and races in the world.  The Catholic church understands that even within the Catholic faith, the vision of Madonna has cultural and racial contexts.
SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-18 01:38 回覆:

我對中醫中藥針灸這些論題沒什麼大興趣,因為這些東西裡頭沒有什麼富於深邃思維和幽微人性的內容,更缺乏趣味,不過看起來你對針灸"苦大仇深",我不多奉陪一下好像不大好。 ^_____^

經脈和穴位確有意義。氣功不是假的。法輪功源出佛家氣功。瑜珈術是很奇妙的東西。西藏和尚練拙火,好玩得很。

針灸止劇痛的案例太多了,衹要有一宗你找不出造假,你就必須"尊重"。我再強調一次這個"尊重",這是科學家應該有的態度。

文化差異文化教養(甚至潛意識中的)這些你不必跟我說。我是中國人加美國人加德國人加猶太人加俄國人~~~ ^+++++^

超出針灸太多的那些申論我就不回覆了。

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Lohengrin
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Prayer and acupuncture.
2009/04/16 15:26
I am sure there are a great deal more people who claim that prayer cures their allergy problems. I mean you can just go to all the religious proselytizing websites for testaments.

The scientific evidence for that claim is probably stronger than the claim that acupuncture cures allergy.  After all, prayer is a form of meditation and we know meditation can calm the body and improves a person's health.

I mean you no offense, but to belittle religious people with science is a bit like belittling people who believe acupuncture cures allergy with double blind tests.
SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-17 13:48 回覆:

我沒有在"見證"什麼。

針灸不是祈禱,不是什麼宗教神靈人靈在發功。針灸有技術,每次的效果都可以驗證。催眠也有技術,效果也可以驗證。這些跟血型星座那些根據經驗的胡說八道更不一樣。這些都是常識。

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Lohengrin
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Testaments as such
2009/04/16 15:04
As we know, testaments are great for spreading the Gospel, but useless for science. 

I am not against acupuncture for the same reason I am not against any placebo as long as it does not contain highly toxic substance or sticking needles in sensitive areas of the body.  Placebo really works.

For the same reason, I am not against religion as long as it doesn't burn heretics or tell its disciples to blow up public buildings.
SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-17 13:24 回覆:

科學尊重可靠可信的事實。一件可靠可信的個案就是一個可靠可信的事實。你如果懷疑某一件個案為不可靠不可信,不妨明說,並指明其不可靠不可信之處何在,最好再附上查驗方法。

你在這個脈絡裡強調安慰劑也有點過火。你當我是笨蛋嗎?

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Lohengrin
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See, we agree.
2009/04/15 15:08

Since one can't really get rid of religion and it probably a bad idea to try, one will just have to reform them, to put them through Renaissance and to make sure they don't burn heretics.  The Catholic church and many mainstream Christian churches hav gone through that, but I am not sure about the Muslims and other religions.

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既然宗教信仰有遺傳成分, 那社會對此就不能[堵]而只能[導]. 我想這就是為啥比較現代和合理的社會都保護宗教信仰自由.  但[導]很重要, 而所謂的[導], 就是對宗教教義用現代道德觀和科學觀來批判. 如果一個宗教要求信徒每天禱告,助人為樂, 那當然好, 但如果一個宗教要求屠殺異教徒, 或者開著飛機去撞異教徒的大樓, 那就不行. 同樣的, 如果一個信仰要求信徒打太極拳, 飲食平衡, 那當然沒關係. 但如果這個信仰讓人拿著針往身上亂刺, 尤其是往別人身上亂刺; 讓人亂吃草草棒棒加水銀化合物, 尤其是讓別人亂吃草草棒棒加水銀化合物, 那就有問題.

http://blog.udn.com/lohengrin/2409692

SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-16 11:15 回覆:

你對針灸和中藥的譏評有點過火。我有過敏性鼻炎,西醫動刀有危險,西藥聊以治標,針灸有效程度在"聊以治標"之上,甚至能改善平常狀況,後來說是要扎一處我不敢讓他扎的地方,這等於我拒絕根治。這是我的經驗。

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