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[2009-3-30] 伊甸園的故事不過是……
2009/03/31 02:05:49瀏覽872|回應3|推薦4

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http://blog.udn.com/SCFtw2/2625901
[2009-2-6] 我就是個業餘的而且不入流的音樂欣賞家
2009/02/07 18:43:17 瀏覽324|回應11|推薦7

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Lohengrin
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Evolutionary advantage.
回覆此篇 刪除 2009/03/28 14:38
I think faith has evolutionary advantage.  Human being is the only animal that is aware of its own eventual death.  One can say that this is THE apple of knowledge in the Garden of Eden.  Faith allows Adam and Eve to alleviate this existential angst.

My observation is that people with faith are in general happier and more at peace.  If this is drug, then it is completely harmless in mild dosages.  Unfortunately, faith is probably inherited or even genetically predisposed.  Some of us just don't have it.  As Steven Weinberg once said, there is limit to what one is capable of believing.  No matter how much benefit he can derive from believing that his lineage goes back to ancient Chinese imperial families, he is incapable of believing it.
SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-03-30 21:49 回覆: 刪除

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『Human being is the only animal that is aware of its own eventual death.  One can say that this is THE apple of knowledge in the Garden of Eden.  Faith allows Adam and Eve to alleviate this existential angst.』

伊甸園的故事不過是一代又一代的猶太人恐嚇民族幼苗that【人如果經不住魔鬼的誘惑而不信任神就必須付出無窮大的代價】。 ^_____^

你把舊約神話中之“有用者”拿來“人文解釋”一番,賦予它們生命哲學思考方面的隱喻,這是後世無神論或懷疑論知識人中常見的一種人文態度,神為人用,古為今用,但這種努力的結果通常衹是人類集體思感面貌上的一種無關美醜而且若見似無的妝點。

在舊約神話裡,耶和華完全是一個“獨擁天威原始神”。人這種東西是這個窮極無聊有時還窮凶極惡的耶和華大神的玩偶。耶和華是天加地,人是芻狗。吃了蘋果因而“墮落”的亞當夏娃是被摒棄的,直到耶和華大神覺得祂的神生太無聊了,起意要“拯救”這一對男女的後代,然後大神挑選了亞伯拉罕,這是猶太教。猶太人口中的Abraham就是阿拉伯人口中的Ibrahim,這是回教(現在好像非改稱伊斯蘭教不可,真是無聊極了)。Abraham的後代又不行了,崇拜大神的神殿被毀,選民也不像選民了,淪入異族統治,大神就下凡投胎為拿撒勒人耶穌,然後這個猶太教異端份子耶穌藉著讓自己被猶太教正統集團假羅馬人之手處死以示大神對人之愛,然後復活給自己人看,以啟堅信,然後就衹出現在信徒的幻境裡,直到今天,這就是耶穌教。新約衹是使徒行傳和使徒口中的耶穌故事,耶穌教的精華還是在舊約,那部猶太神話加猶太歷史加猶太文化的巨著。期待彌賽亞的猶太人搞死了耶穌,後來一直也沒等到彌賽亞降臨,反而被希特勒一口氣宰掉了六百萬人,種族少了三分之一。那六百萬隻芻狗臨死時是不是還在巴望著彌賽亞? -- 這或許是人類文明史上最殘忍的問句。 -- 但是真正的質問在這個問句背後 -- 人類文明史上最有名望的大神耶和華難道不是衹不過是一個“獨擁天威原始神”?

這是現代人的文化史評述。

完全是虛妄。猶太教的舊耶和華大神和耶穌教的新耶和華大神都是虛妄,然而沒有舊約耶穌教輝煌的義理系統就會立刻化為四散飛揚的塵土。這段人類文化史評述凡中智以上應該就有能力完全讀懂。耶穌教舊約聖經裡的神話內容衹是神話,很容易讀懂的神話。希臘羅馬神話明麗可愛,北歐神話雄渾蒼涼,猶太神話在人神互動方面比別的神話有趣,裡面民族文化心理的成份很高,但我們沒有必要(在宗教心理的脈絡中)賦予猶太神話的任何章節生命哲學思考方面的隱喻,因為所涉及的生命哲學思考都是現代人本文明的產物 -- 雖然在神話裡永遠看得到人心。 ^_^

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SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-03-31 01:55 回覆: 刪除

對下一段的回覆寫得長了,沒法貼,衹好貼成一篇主帖~~~

http://blog.udn.com/SCFtw2/2800379
[2009-3-31] 人需要“有神”
2009/03/31 01:47:48

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Lohengrin
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On faith II
回覆此篇 刪除 2009/03/26 13:17
I think that we, as secular humanists, are missing some truly wonderful experience.  It would be nice if I can become religious when I am listening to Parsifal or B minor Mass. 

Verily verily I tell you that this is also a phenomenon of the brain and has nothing to do with objective truth, mathematics or science. 
SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-03-27 12:01 回覆: 刪除

一、人心的造作力太強,一個人如果在知道自己心裡的"some truly wonderful experience"乃是自己的某些偶發的大腦生理活動(腦電波和腦神經細胞化學)的產物之後還去believe in God for creating that never-ending happiness,那麼這個人之超浪漫之超sentimental之超沉溺之自欺就很難被別人接受了。

二、吸毒讓人覺得飄飄欲仙,所以吸毒有能讓人沉迷到不可自拔的力量。"趨利避害"是動物性第一條,"好逸惡勞"是動物性第二條,把這兩條合起來,再從人的主觀能動性著眼,我們就能看到"尋求快感/滿足慾望"是人生的首要驅動力。神明信仰者與吸毒者都追求渴望超級快感,他們沒有什麼不同。 ^_^

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Lohengrin
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On faith
回覆此篇 刪除 2009/03/09 12:57
I think we are a bit off the topic, but this is unavoidable because a big chunk of classical music is sacred, or faith inspired.  Religious experience seems to be universal and, in its best form, enhances the human experience and improves people's lives in general.  I think I may get even a deeper appreciation out of B minor mass if I have faith.  If one just looks at the result, B minor mass alone justifies faith.

There was a study in which scientists measured brain waves and other physical characters of Tibetan monks in deep meditation.  When one of the scientists presented a results in a conference, he was asked whether the results nullified the mystic claims.  The guy said no because science is also a phenomenon of the brain.  In other words,  solipsism is a perfectly good alternative. 

Back to music.  It seems that you know all the stuff I listen to.  What do you think of Sibelius' stuff, especially his 4th symphony?  What about The Goose of Tuonela? 
SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-03-09 23:05 回覆: 刪除

關於宗教 --- 尤其是耶穌教 --- 我一年前"被動地"寫過不少,收攏了一些(不完整)留存在我的倉庫"每事報"裡面。見

https://city.udn.com/51173/forum?cate_no=78423

https://city.udn.com/51173/forum?cate_no=78407

關於"佛家"及密宗,見
https://city.udn.com/51173/2508973?tpno=0&cate_no=72393

關於科學,見
https://city.udn.com/51173/forum?cate_no=72393

在平面上一個直角三角形的直角對邊邊長的平方等於另兩邊邊長的平方之和,這是永恆的真實,科學發現這個,這是高智之腦的智性活動。科學過程造就或產生或發現科學知識,科學知識是大腦活動的結果。觀察一個大腦在進行科學研究思維,這時這個觀察者可以粗糙地宣稱science is a phenomenon of the brain,但是在你所提到的那種場合那種情境用"science is also a phenomenon of the brain"來回答那種問話是很怪異的。

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SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-03-09 23:41 回覆: 刪除
Sibelius是個"怪物",走自己的路。早期的芬蘭頌是精品,極凝練,無廢話,動人,可與貝先生的Leonore並列。他的"特色管弦樂作品"獨樹一格,真是千里雪原的特產品,哪一部作品如何如何我沒法說,因為很久沒聽了。我非常欣賞他的交響詩,音聲低沉豐厚,如一匹巨帛,緩慢陰沉,空曠寂寥,精神上很孤獨,但很能承擔。這些音樂絕非無趣,因為旋律很好,開展變化也很好。捨棄連章形式是對的,因為聲音以結尾形式停了音樂就結束了,等於一部電影放完了,一本小說寫完了,一張畫紙畫完了。四樂章連續,那是連篇作品,四篇文章,而奏鳴曲式是八股文。Sibelius的交響詩都神完氣足,黃泉的天鵝在音樂品質上可比於Vaugham-Williams的高翔的雲雀,可比於湖南民間笛曲鷓鴣飛。三種鳥。 ^_____^
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Lohengrin
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Religious experience is universal.
2009/04/05 20:01
Religious experience is universal across culture and time.  It is then not a stretch to hypothesize that there might be some biological basis.  The alternative is to suggest that there is really some deity who is influencing people's minds.  Or one can argue that this universality is a coincidence, but I think that is a stretch.

I am not saying that the various religious doctrines are factually and scientifically true.  Only that the religious experience is universal and as such it merits study.  The Jungian concept of universal archetypes is a very interesting idea.
SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-06 23:47 回覆:

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又寫長了,衹能另貼,在這裡~~~

http://blog.udn.com/SCFtw2/2823921
[2009-4-6] 關於宗教經驗/體驗
2009/04/06 22:48:10

再補充一下。

容格有兩樣東西很出名:集體潛意識、普遍原型。年青的時候武俠小說最能吸引我,所以容格一手貨二手貨我也都沒讀過,不過那兩樣東西略有所知,一直衹是略有所知。 ^_^

『人同此心,心同此理』這兩句話很好用。可以再加四句話:『口無同嗜,則無易牙。目無同美,則無子都。』有一些很基本的事象大家的看法差不多,感覺差不多,這就是人同此心心同此理,不過『人同此心』在基本道理上在基本知識上比『心同此理』重要這一點好像比較少有人重視,『人同此心』在道理上應該是『普遍原型』的根源。在一個不受外來影響的社會裡,易牙和子都是一定存在的,這個事象說穿了還是『人同此心』。穿越時空、文化、和社會的宗教經驗的普遍原型到底是什麼樣子?心腦專家會努力研究的,不過我看那個普遍原型之存在 -- 如果確實存在 -- 應該還是那些少數人『人同此心』的結果。 ╯∩﹏﹏∩╰

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Lohengrin
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Continue
2009/04/01 12:35

Noam Chomsky proved (at least to my satisfaction) that the structure of language is hardwired into the brain.  I agree that there is no gene of religion just as there is no gene of language, but I think faith has evolutionary advantage and would not be surprised if there is a similar genetic predisposition.

Watch Melvin Konner's presentation in

http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/beyond-belief-science-religion-reason-and-survival/session-9-1

Konner's presentation starts about 50mins into the session and you can skip to it if you like.

If that is the case, then it is not a matter of choosing religion or no religion, but religion or better religion.  To have a better religion, one can either start from scratch or reform the old and existing ones.  I submit that the first choice, namely starting from scratch, is not really feasible.  This leaves us with reformation (pun intended), hence, my interpretation/re-interpretation of the story of the Apple.  ^_^

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UDN is complaining about my essay being too long again.  Apparently, if the essay is in English, it counts letters rather than words!!!

SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-05 04:35 回覆:

我知道Chomsky的那番論說很多人同意,不過我沒讀過,也沒讀過二手貨。我早就不讀書了~~~ ^_^

語言是一種邏輯產物。不合邏輯的語言不可能被發展出來,因為不能用於溝通。人腦有邏輯能力,因為邏輯能力糟糕的人腦對擁有者的實際效應是明顯的選擇劣勢。^_^

沒有什麼宗教基因,也沒有什麼語言基因,因為沒有什麼思維基因。腦細胞的生理活動產生一切,造成一切。黑猩猩的腦細胞的生理活動跟人類的差不多,有些黑猩猩對單純事象的記憶力甚至比人強,但黑猩猩沒法記憶複雜的事象,也不能從事稍微複雜些的思考,這純粹是聰明程度(也就是智能高低)的問題。人類的大腦構造演化程度(尤其是額葉皮質)比黑猩猩高,所以人腦的思維能力遠比黑猩猩的大腦的思維能力強大,如此而已。人的思維變得複雜,產生高級文明,那是"文化演化",不是"生物演化",這一點很多生物學家搞不清楚。

你對生物演化學欠瞭解,所以時發怪論。我實在不知道你為什麼一直被"宗教信仰的演化優勢"這個意念黏住~~~ ^+++++^

關於伊甸園裡的那個造孽的蘋果,見我的新帖~~~

http://blog.udn.com/SCFtw2/2817728
[2009-4-5] 伊甸園故事裡的罪與罰

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Lohengrin
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On poetic language.
2009/04/01 12:30

I don't dispute your factual analysis, except to quote Dobzhansky:

"The Koran and the Bible do not contradict Copernicus, nor does Copernicus contradict them. It is ludicrous to mistake the Bible and the Koran for primers of natural science. They treat of matters even more important: the meaning of man and his relations to God. They are written in poetic symbols that were understandable to people of the age when they were written, as well as to peoples of all other ages."

Then there is Socrates' analysis in "Apology":


"...not by wisdom do poets write poetry, but by a sort of genius and inspiration; they are like diviners or soothsayers who also say many fine things, but do not understand the meaning of them."

In this situation, it is not a stretch to interpret the story of the Apple the way I (as well as many other) did.

SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 於 2009-04-05 03:52 回覆:

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Socrates:『...not by wisdom do poets write poetry, but by a sort of genius and inspiration; they are like diviners or soothsayers who also say many fine things, but do not understand the meaning of them.』
『詩人寫詩並不靠智能,而是靠一種天稟與靈感;占卜預言者也會說出許多好東西但是不瞭解那些好東西的意義,詩人跟占卜預言者很像。』

蘇老先生的這幾句話並不完全對。靈感是一種天賦智能的“半自動”操作狀態,這個天賦智能需要訓練。寫詩需要技巧,技巧來自學習和訓練。天賦智能不夠,那麼不管怎麼訓練,“像樣的”靈感都不會出現。他說的diviners or soothsayers如何如何指的應該是這些人的起乩狀態。希臘的神諭經常有解讀的問題。

很多神話故事的內容 -- 不是語句 -- 詩意盎然。至於語句,舊約裡有一堆文學可觀的讚美詩。And in a sense, they knew what they were doing. ^_^

附帶說一下。生物演化學家Theodosius Dobzhansky不是宗教信徒,此事已述明~~~
http://blog.udn.com/SCFtw2/2817703

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