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谷歌事件持續延燒
2010/01/27 17:10:00瀏覽3502|回應65|推薦71

 

世界第一大網路公司 Google ﹝大陸音譯為「谷歌」﹞因不滿及不耐中華人民共和國的言論箝制正蘊釀退出大陸。

美國輿論一般並不看好中國大陸,當然共和國來的愛國志士們例外。華語電視節目全被這些強烈反美帝民族主義者的扣應塞爆。

前第一夫人喜萊麗就此事件發表的演說,至少在我個人看來是中肯合理的,也引發大陸強硬的反擊。

普世價值之一的言論自由,他們﹝不只中共政府,也包括國民﹞咸認為不符合中國國情,也有些人稱之為文化,反正就是堅信「中國」人的﹝廣義﹞言論不應該享有完全與絕對的自由。

理由呢?當然就是網路上的「壞東西」啦!像色情、暴力、詐騙,這些都必須防範,而且應該由政府來做。至於反極權、反獨裁、反專制這些就不提了。我都不知後面這些現在在中國大陸是否已經變成「好東西」,所以不防範也不必提了?

當然也有一些比較理性的共和國子民瞭解或至少知道「言論自由」和「普世價值」是怎麼回事。不過這些人的想法通常都有個但書,而這但書一般就根基於自由民主國家壞的一面,並且例證鑿鑿,不勝枚舉。像美國的道德淪喪啦,菲律賓的政治腐敗啦,墨西哥的貧窮落後啦,甚至中華民國的阿扁貪污啦,都成為他們擁護政府國家反對言論自由的,堂堂正正的理由。

這未免又使我困惑不已。共和國的人民道德高尚嗎?國家政治清廉嗎?國民所得高過墨西哥了嗎?政府官員不貪污嗎?如果答案都是“YES”,我就比較沒話説了,雖然還是有兩個疑點:第一、這四個國家容或確有上述情事,可那是民主制度下的言論自由造成的嗎?第二、大陸人民高尚的道德水準、清廉的國家政治、超高的人均所得、以及零貪官污吏現象,是用「不自由」和「不民主」換來的嗎?如果是,值得嗎?如果不是,那麼堅持「不自由」和「不民主」又為那樁?

從法律層面出發的則說,任何公司不論大小都應遵守在地國的法律,谷歌自不能例外。這種論調我最喜歡了,像我們中華民國,表面上看起來亂歸亂,整個社會國家還是持續朝向「依法行政」去進行的,否則貴為退職總統的阿扁也不會被關押起來,玩法弄權的陳聰明也不會被彈劾下臺。問題是,我確實仔細看過中華人民共和國憲法,上頭並沒說人民不可以有言論自由。更何況,懂得上網的人都知道,谷歌公司提供的搜尋軟體不過是一個網上言論的交流平臺,什麼地方不尊重在地國法律了?難不成谷歌在中國的搜尋器是特別版本,是專為侵犯大陸法律、侮辱中國人民而設計的?

這在我來看像是不高興開車的人﹝網路使用者﹞不守交通秩序﹝在地國法律﹞便責備開馬路的人﹝谷歌﹞「不尊重中國國法」。

最後一類人則遷怒喜萊麗將中國與一些「不三不四的國家」像北韓、古巴、阿爾巴尼亞、越南等「相提並論」,是蓄意侮辱中國!

哎喲,真是對不起呀!我高本衲一向也以為中國大陸和它們是一掛的說。還是現在大陸有點「富起來」了,開始瞧不起這些過去大家穿同一條褲子數饅頭打天下的兄弟之邦,而喜萊麗等美帝強權之流不及認知此一微妙變化,還將偉大的中國與落伍的它們相提並論,是一種 "negligence of malice"﹝「惡意的輕忽」﹞?

Oh...My...God...

不是本衲要開始相信上帝了,只是這個國家的人讓我起一身雞皮疙瘩,不知如何才是,只好「呼天搶帝」。

後記:臺灣魔術師劉謙風靡大陸,頗受觀眾熱愛。最近因據傳他在日本向日人「下跪」導至中國民眾憤恨不滿,現有大量群眾正於網上蘊釀在「春節聯歡晚會」裡「封殺」劉謙,拒看他的魔術表演。

我剛在新聞畫面裡見到那場景了,是個搞笑的節目。一群人圍成個方形跪在那兒,劉謙走進去,在中央跪坐下來﹝因為是榻榻米,沒椅子﹞,和節目主持人以日語交談一些我也聽不懂的話語,如此而已。

這樣也扯動大陸人敏感的仇日神經!

難不成劉謙應該兀自站在當中,接受四面人等的跪拜,這樣才不屈辱、媚日?

我也不喜歡日本,不過就事論事而已。很簡單的一個事實是:不正常的國家就會有不正常的國民,反之亦然。

雞皮疙瘩才平下去又起來了。

 

( 時事評論媒體出版 )
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天涯比鄰
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your point 1
2010/01/31 12:34

普世價值之一的言論自由,他們﹝不只中共政府,也包括國民﹞咸認為不符合中國國情,也有些人稱之為文化,反正就是堅信「中國」人的﹝廣義﹞言論不應該享有完全與絕對的自由。

"Now, tell me if you will, which part is wrong when I "point your finger at the Chinese people". "

and "..You can't just vaguely say, that I pointed my finger at Chinese people, and was wrong. "

From your words: 言論自由 is one of 普世價值s and this is what 他們﹝不只中共政府,也包括國民﹞咸認為不符合中國國情,...  都成為他們擁護政府國家反對言論自由的,堂堂正正的理由。 Tell me if you didn't point your finger at the Chinese people for their support of Chinese government's cyber anti-sabotage operations.  To your dismay, the Chinese people has as much right as the American people to decide "that anyone who has SABOTAGE in mind, government ESPIONAGE is the right way to deal with it."  There you have it: freedom of speech is NOT 普世價值 as you've claimed.  In fact, national security (i.e. public safety - life, property, and happiness) is.  So your point #1 (you didn't point at the Chinese people and you were not wrong).

GolfNut — 無心的邂逅(GolfNut) 於 2010-01-31 13:33 回覆:

You have to be kidding me.

I asked you, "which part of my accusation is wrong".  I do acknowledge that I am accusing somebody of something.  I am asking you THAT "something"!

And your answer is that my finger pointing itself is wrong.

I can't care less about your dislike of being finger-pointed-at, like I said before: "finger-pointing itself is not wrong, it is what was the pointing for, that could be wrong."

You just don't like my finger, do you? Ok, then, I'll use my toe to do my toe-pointing.

I ask you about the substance that may be wrong, your answer merely refers to my action.

Are you playing dumb, or pretending you don't understand English because now you are being cornered?

If you don't get serious or refuse to be honest, you will be blocked.


JamieChao
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大家要再加油的地方不同
2010/01/31 12:29
很多時候是因為自卑才會如此敏感,我想,當有一天可以坦然接受批評與真自由時,就不會在乎這些了,他們還有很大進步空間。
GolfNut — 無心的邂逅(GolfNut) 於 2010-01-31 13:06 回覆:

是的,完全同意。我極少使用「自卑」二字,因為這兩個字不僅造成敏感,它的本身就極為敏感。既然您不避諱提了,我就大方的借花獻佛吧。

自卑其實是不必的,努力以赴就好;自滿也大可不必,虛懷若谷更佳。在過與不及間,中國大陸的表現較諸其他世界大國更顯兩極。我願意誠實的說,在這個應該「執兩用中」的端點上,百姓的表現遠不如政府。

此二極的中間點是什麼呢?且容我提出「自信」二字。

自信的人當然不自卑,更不會自滿。自信的人未必見得「溫良恭儉讓」,在此讓我各舉一信心滿滿的人來佐證:張飛、廖添丁、宮本武藏、Batman、老虎伍茲。喔,還有本衲,也是一個自信滿滿,五樣美德俱缺的人。自信的人容或不「溫良恭儉讓」,但也並不就常咬牙切齒、氣極敗壞,更不會老繃著一張苦大仇深似的臉四下裡去眦睚必報。

我期待多一些有自信的人上我這兒交流、酬答。


天涯比鄰
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On Xinjiang and Tibet
2010/01/31 10:48

Again your view of the topic lacks historical depth, breadth, and perspectives.  Both ROC and PRC after the civil war claimed to inherit what was originally the Ching Empire.  It has been agreed by historians and international law experts that both Tibet and Xinjiang were both parts of the Ching Empire.  If you're still 'ignorant' about the fact, let me point you to the right direction to educate yourself: http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073.

This is the best source for laymen to understand the arguments, issues, regarding Tibet, PRC, China, Tibet Freedom fighters, and of course Dalai Lama's lies for decades.  BTW, it was not written by a Chinese.  I mention this here because I know you're a Chinese-hater.  Most of the posts responding to many Tibetans and those who promote Tibet independence were written by an Australian teaching English in China.

If nothing at all, the posts are quite entertaining.  Enjoy.

GolfNut — 無心的邂逅(GolfNut) 於 2010-01-31 11:43 回覆:

此帖暫不回復,原因詳參天涯比鄰 (zenit33233)前帖本人之回復。


岐客
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古狗只是不滿意自己在大陸的待遇,認爲掙得錢少而已
2010/01/31 10:29

要說古狗是因不滿及不耐中華人民共和國的言論箝制正蘊釀退出大陸,其實是不了解古狗的苦衷,古狗自從進入中國大陸起,其實就一直配合這種言論箝制,並且還曾經受到了外界的一致譴責。現在一哭二閙三上吊,也沒有你說的這麽高尚,古狗只是不滿意自己在大陸的待遇,認爲掙得錢少而已。這就像一個婊子,因爲對恩客不滿,就裝出貞節烈女的樣子,叫嚷你強暴我,我要報官,其實是虛張聲勢,看看古狗剛哭嚷了幾句,透過指縫看到形勢不對,就活生生的要把拉出來的屎橛坐囘屁眼?去,就知道所謂持續延燒是多麽滑稽的説法了。

美國人也別裝得多純潔無瑕,先把所謂的愛國者法案廢除後再來指責別人吧!台灣某些人也別只會跟在別人面前搖旗呐喊,只會懲治虛擬網友範蘭欽,要說對國家對台灣人的誣衊,還有阿扁那句中華民囯是什麽碗糕更惡毒的麽?要說光天化日之下指名道姓對別人謾駡,哪個能超的過那位姓李的扁師?他們的這些污言穢語爲什麽得不到懲治?這很公平麽?

GolfNut — 無心的邂逅(GolfNut) 於 2010-01-31 12:07 回覆:

你說的古狗緣由或許是對的 ─ 如果你有確實內幕資訊的話。若只是個人臆測,任誰都可以天馬行空隨意猜想。臆想是你個人主觀的自由,確實的客觀資訊可能更有價值些。世間道理大率如此,好吃的東西沒營養,營養的東西不好吃。

你後面那段,我可以大致如此回答,而這只是一個比方:

我認為你把「正義差異的存在」之無可避免與「懲治罪犯的法律」之實際價值混為一談了。

還有,指責別人並不須要自己完美無缺,只要指責者言之成理即可。很多時候被指責的人其資格水準條件成份遠高於指責者。在臺灣指責馬英九總統的人何只千萬?這些指責者有幾人的資格水準條件成份高於馬總統?恐怕連一個都沒有,要有的話,幹嘛不是那個人現在坐在總統的位子上?

那麼這成千上萬的指責就無效了嗎?當然不。就不該指責了嗎?當然也不。


天涯比鄰
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Twisting facts
2010/01/31 10:14

"A few hundred years is a short period of time.  For us as persons, if you "acquired" something that does not belong to you in the first place, after one day or fifty years, it's still not yours.  You should not own it, period."

According to your logic, Americans should return all lands known as U.S.A. to native "Indians"; and all Taiwanese who are descendants of Mainlanders should move back to Mainland (of course they can no longer call themselves Taiwanese).

I find you and your arguments very interesting.  You remind me of Abien and your arguments of DPPs.  Did you graduate from the same school as Abien?  You both love to twist facts as you go.

GolfNut — 無心的邂逅(GolfNut) 於 2010-01-31 11:43 回覆:

此帖暫不回復,原因詳參天涯比鄰 (zenit33233)前帖本人之回復。


天涯比鄰
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普世價值 is fake
2010/01/31 09:34

"... that the American people have decided, that anyone who has SABOTAGE in mind, government ESPIONAGE is the right way to deal with it."

You still don't get it, do you?  With what you've said in mind, don't you think you're hypocritical when you point your finger at the Chinese people while agreeing and accepting everything Americans do or say, right or wrong, as 普世價值?  How can a top American official, i.e., Hilary Clinton, criticize another country's anti-sabotage policy when U.S. itself has its hand in the cookie jar?  But then, there you are wagging your tail and hailing blindly at everything American as Godly.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to say what Americans do to safeguard their country is wrong.  I am just offering my criticism of your criticisms as fake, hypocritical, and stinky.

GolfNut — 無心的邂逅(GolfNut) 於 2010-01-31 11:37 回覆:

Don't get too excited just yet. How can I possibly give you such an easy chance to accuse me of anything? If you think I am stupid, then you are stupid, because I don't think you are stupid. It is you who is not getting it.

I don't care what Hillary said, I merely expressed my feeling about her speech, but I do care what you said about what I said. Now, tell me if you will, which part is wrong when I "point your finger at the Chinese people". I am not giving you an easy way out here, now that you are accusing me of something I don't think I did. You can't just vaguely say, that I pointed my finger at Chinese people, and was wrong. But if I did, I did point my finger at the Chinese government, as I always do. Still, let's assume you meant to say that I pointed my finger at the Chinese government, you'll have to tell me which part of my accusation is wrong. Finger-pointing itself is not wrong, it is what was the pointing for, that could be wrong. When did ANY Chinese people EVER stop pointing their fingers at America? Do you think that is wrong also?

Now the second part. How do you know I am or was "agreeing and accepting everything Americans do or say, right or wrong, as 普世價值? " , where is your proof? You'll have to answer this question, too, if you are serious about what your post. I won't give you an easy way out here, either. Remember you said "everything". 「普世價值」by definition, are accepted worldly, has nothing to do with America in particular. If you can't prove that I agree and accept everything Americans do or say, right or wrong, as 普世價值, YOU are then the one who is doing a false accusation.

Thirdly, as to "wagging your tail and hailing blindly at everything American as Godly", that is what you SAID, not what I DID. I will pardon your transgression here, as these are nothing more than your personal emotion. I don't have a tail, I am obviously not blind, and I totally don't believe in God, any god. Your sentence serves no meaningful purpose.

Lastly, about "your criticisms as fake, hypocritical, and stinky", I don't care about the fake, hypocritical, or stinky part, I want to know WHICH CRITICISM you are refering to. You are going to answer this one also, otherwise, you are again making a fool of your self, as I can send this exact same sentence back to you, that "your criticisms as fake, hypocritical, and stinky", WITHOUT ANY SUBSTANTIATING EVIDENCE.

Oh, I forgot to mention that, if this fourth comment is a mere OPINION, not a STATEMENT, then I'll pardon you also. But, then there you have it, I am sending it right back to you, and it's merely my personal opinion, not a statement, and nor do I need any proof.

You owe me three answers, and you will chip in your due diligence in answering them HONESTLY. Or else, you will be blocked, BUT YOUR PAST POSTING MAY STAY INDEFINITELY, as historical evidence of your ridiculous behavior. As I wait for your reply, any/all of your ensuing posting will be ignored, because I will deal with you about this one, and this one only, for now. If you choose not to come back, it is not encouraged but then I respect your choice. You have freedom of speech here, absolutely.


NetSpider
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精 闢
2010/01/30 23:05
個人感覺是大陸同胞似乎有一股壓抑著的「怨氣」,
所以有的事件,就像是「一觸即發」。
GolfNut — 無心的邂逅(GolfNut) 於 2010-01-31 02:13 回覆:

您說的確實一針見血。

這也是為什麼我說「不正常」的原因。


joycelinlin愷悅
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門邊磨合
2010/01/30 12:03

會不會是大陸向世界的開放有他的步驟,眼見是經濟先行。

一個地域有一個地域的情況,大陸大概有顧慮自已在言論思想上的條件尚未如其他自由世界那樣能完全開放;一下太猛如洪水,地土大人民多,亂烘烘得難以維持現在百事齊發幸好仍在一定的秩序裡那種秩序。呀,我在說什麼啊?打結了。文盲多,知識水平不平均,尚有那麼多農村城市差距的緊張,邊地民族兼宗教的緊張,共產思想退潮又未有空間探索新舊中西的隱憂,當政者那有不怕言論思想在網路世界的肆無忌憚?看來,兩方慢慢談磨合一下彼此如何配合不是很好麽?大陸已打開經濟的門,無法擋住大風吹進來的。

GolfNut — 無心的邂逅(GolfNut) 於 2010-01-30 14:52 回覆:

凱悅您說的有理,許多實質問題都被您說中了。解決這麼多問題須要時間、金錢、知識、意志、智慧、改變‧‧‧追根究底,政府仍必須負起全責。然而中共政權有一個打不開的死結 ─ 黨的生存問題。核心深處就是它的意識型態。今天的中共之所以一切都可以、也願意改變,只有極權、專政、不民主、不自由這些絕對、萬萬、打死不能變,就是因為跟這個黨的生死存滅息息相關。之所以稱為死結,是因為它改也不是,不改也不是,二者都複雜、困難、龐大、危險得不得了。言論自由只是這個問題的一小部份,谷歌事件只是暴露這小部分的一個引子,我這篇文只是對這引子的一個個人看法。

臺灣一切所有的問題都是馬總統造成的嗎?當然不是。為什麼大家一天到晚罵他呢?因為他是總統啊。中國大陸一切所有的問題都是共產黨造成的嗎?當然不是。為什麼舉世的目光和箭頭都指向中共呢?因為它是唯一的,永遠的、在朝的執政黨啊!


革命烈士韓起的兒子
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谷歌事件您等着看戲
2010/01/30 11:05
您在轉移焦點、不敢針對事实置一言以辯我述的事实。以您的學院派
我從來沒看在眼裡、什么邏輯、簡直好聽留着點自己用。我就是FAIR。
一個大老粗、一切講事實、不打高空唱高調、谷歌事件您等着看戲、看看
结果、谷歌有沒有種完全退出中國、摇旗呐喊高唱『言論自由』、
『普世價值』班師回美!?
GolfNut — 無心的邂逅(GolfNut) 於 2010-01-30 14:54 回覆:

喔,我明白了,你說的「事實」指的是你上一帖有關郭冠英的回應吧?郭冠英我是同情的,我們有一陣子常說「悄悄話」﹝他來我訪客簿﹞,我還跟他本人在美見過面呢。

不過本文不談郭冠英事件。我去年六月早有一文在此:試代郭冠英答問

GolfNut — 無心的邂逅(GolfNut) 於 2010-01-30 14:16 回覆:

谷歌最後如何與我干?我的文有預測嗎?在那裡提到的?你又敘述了什麼「事實」?什麼是「學院派」?我自稱過嗎?「不敢」、「有種」、「搖旗吶喊」這些辭彙,有開始「抓狂」的味道了,何必、又何苦呢?

雖然你自稱「大老粗」,我還是不願意以此貶損你的人。不理性是萬惡之源,如果你的命不太好,人生未盡如意,請從檢討自己的理性水平開始做起。這絕非針對你個人,我四十歲之後就一直以此規勸不快樂、不如意的人,常上我這兒的無人不知無人不曉。這是我的肺腑之言。讓您不高興的地方,對不住,算我得罪了。


GolfNut — 無心的邂逅
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給 SCFtw2
2010/01/30 09:46
如果有空的話,幫我回一回。你的歷史比我強,還有我有個 party 現在得走。感恩。
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