此文乃本人老闆之義務翻譯成果之一。老闆每於交稿後，即將之刪除，實為可惜。故特將之保存，已饗有緣者。 

主持人：晚上好，歡迎來到「與淨空法師一席談」的節目現場，我是陳嘉榮。

Anchor:  Good evening. Welcome to “Chat Time (A Dialogue) with Venerable Master Chin Kung.”  This is Jiarong Chan.

我們生活在一個自由開放的年代，隨著地球村的概念應運而生，人與人之間的距離是愈來愈近了。各族群之間的傳統文化、意識形態和生活方式等等，都會出現許多的矛盾和衝突，我們該如何消除？今天在我們節目現場就很高興，同時也很難得，能夠邀請到淨空法師來到我們節目現場，淨空法師您好！

Nowadays, we live in an Era of great freedom and openness.  With the rise of the concept of “global village,” the distance between people is getting closer and closer. The traditions, cultures, ideologies, and living styles of different ethnic groups have generated many confrontations and conflicts [in multi-cultural communities].  How should we eliminate them?  Today we are very glad as well as appreciative of this rare opportunity to be able to invite V. M. Chin Kung to our program. Good evening Venerable Master Chin Kung.

淨空法師：謝謝。

Ven. Maser： Thank you!

主持人：今天節目現場，除了有淨空法師之外，我們還有三位嘉賓來到現場，待會會向淨空法師提出他們的疑問，請淨空法師來開示。他們分別就是，光華日報總編輯胡錦昌先生。

Anchor:  Today, besides Venerable Master Chin Kung, we also have three honorable guests, who will ask V. M. Chin Kung questions and for his elucidation.  Our first guest is Mr. Jingchang Hu, Chief Editor of Kwong Wah Daily.

胡錦昌：阿彌陀佛。

Hu Jingchang: Amitabha Buddha.

主持人：胡先生也是皈依在淨空法師門下。我們另外的一位媒體人是新中日報副總編輯曾玉林先生。

Anchor: Mr. Hu has taken refuge in Buddhism and Venerable Master Chin Kung is his teacher. Another guest from the media industry is Mr. Yulin Zeng, Deputy Editor in Chief of Sin Chew Daily.

曾玉林：好，大家好。

Zeng Yulin:  Greetings, everyone.

主持人：玉林也是對佛法非常非常有興趣的一位媒體人。再來，我們有東方日報的副編輯、主任，他就是藍志峰先生，他是一個對社會觀察非常犀利的一位媒體人。感謝三位到我們現場。

Anchor: Yulin is media person who is very, very interested in Buddhism.  Finally, we have the Deputy Editor in Chief and Director of Oriental Daily News, Mr. Zhifung Lan.  He is a perspicacious (shrewd, keen, discerning) social observer in the media circle.  Thank you all for coming.

節目一開始，我想問我們的淨空法師。我們知道淨空法師，他常常到世界各地去做講經和教學，也常常到我們馬來西亞。對於推動各族群、各宗教的融合，還有和諧，盡了非常大的力量，也貢獻非常多。我想問淨空法師，對於我們馬來西亞這樣的一個多元文化、多元種族和多元宗教的這樣的一個社會，我們該如何達到向上和向善的這樣的一個社會？

I’d like to start the program by first asking Venerable Master Chin Kung some questions.  As we know, Venerable Master Chin Kung often gives lectures around the world, and has visited Malaysia many times.  He has contributed tremendously to the promotion of harmonious integration of different races and religions.  I’d like to ask the Venerable Master how can Malaysia, an ethnically diversified society with multi-faith and multi-cultures, become a society motivated by uprightness and virtues?

淨空法師：我記得，我跟首相第一次見面的時候，他就問我一個問題，他說我很想把馬來西亞治理得好，有什麼方法？我當時回答他，只要把教育辦好了，所有問題都解決了。今天社會搞成這個樣子，它的根本原因是教育發生問題，所以只要把教育上軌道，問題都可以解決。

V.M. Chin Kung:  I remember the first time I met with the Prime Minister, he asked me a question. He stated that “I would like to govern Malaysia well.  Do you have any method to recommend?” My answer for him at that time was: “All problems will be solved if you provide good education for your people.”  The social chaos of Today originates from problematic education. So long as education is on the right track, all problems can be solved.

主持人：在教育上，我想是任何一個國家，任何一個領導都非常重視的一環。對於一個多元民族，或者是多元文化的一個社會裡面，推動教育，我想它的一個重要目的是讓每個人都成為一個好人。

Anchor: With respect to education, I think that any country, any leader would put great emphasis on this issue.  With respect to a multi-race or a multi-cultural society, to promote education, I think that one of its important goals is to let everyone become a good person.

淨空法師：對。

V. M. Chin Kung: That’s right.

主持人：但是我們看到好像知易行難，很多時候都不能做到，問題出現在哪裡？

Anchor:  However, we have observed that it is easier said than done. Many times we cannot accomplish this goal.  What is the problem?

淨空法師：問題出現在教育的內容跟方法。東方，傳統的教育，受中國影響很深，因為這是個大國。東南亞一帶，都是與中國傳統文化有很深的淵源，尤其鄭和六次下西洋，都在馬六甲住過。所以他是一個伊斯蘭回教信徒，同時也是佛教的信徒。他本身是回族家庭出身，但是他的老闆永樂大帝是虔誠的佛教徒。所以，他對於這兩個宗教的融合，做得非常之好。他所帶到南洋的，像爪哇的佛教，他傳的，就很柔和，有中國儒、佛的理念在裡頭。蘇門答臘是從歐洲傳，那就不一樣，很明顯能看得出來。我們在馬來西亞這個地方受鄭和影響很深，馬六甲每一條街，好像都有鄭和廟，這個是連首相納吉也都非常讚歎。

V. M. Chin Kung:  The problem lies in the contents and methods of the education system.  In the Orient, the traditional education was greatly influenced by China because it was a powerful country in the past.  Cultures in Southeast Asia had a deep connection with the traditional Chinese culture.  This is especially due to the influence of Zheng He (1371–1433).  Zheng stayed in Malacca during his six voyages on the Pacific Ocean.  Zheng was a Muslim and a Buddhist at the same time.  He was born into a Muslim family, but his boss, Emperor Yongle (reigned from 1399 to 1422) was a devoted Buddhist.  He integrated the two faiths very well.  For example, the Islam transmitted by Zheng in the Java Island was very lenient, amalgamating both Confucianism and Buddhism. The Islam in the Sumatra Island, however, propagated by Europeans, demonstrated a sharp contrast from Zheng’s Islamic practices.  Zheng was also very influential in Malaysia.  Almost every street in Malacca has a San Bao Temple to commemorate Zheng (San Bao was Zheng’s first name). This phenomenon has also been praised by Prime Minister Najib.

所以中國的教學，是教人做好人，是教人做聖人、做賢人，聖賢教育。它不是自私自利的，不是以個人名利為出發點。所以這種教育能夠推動的話，世界和諧可以能夠做到。

So, the traditional Chinese education is to teach a person to become a good person, a gentleman, a sage, and finally a saint.  It is not motivated by selfishness, for personal gain or fame.  If this kind of education can be promoted, a harmonious world can be realized.

主持人：我知道淨空法師一直提倡要有一個和諧的社會，我們也知道淨宗學會常常會推動《弟子規》，還有像《十善業道經》等等這樣的一個教學。這些都是關係到我們華人的傳統文化，傳統文化在一個社會和諧的這個進程當中，它扮演怎樣一個角色？

Anchor: I know that V.M. Chin Kung has been steadfastly advocating a harmonious society. We also know that the Pure Land Association often promotes the teachings of the sages such as Di Zi Gui (Standards for Being a Good Student and Child), The Ten Virtuous Karmas Sutra, etc.  These teachings are all associated with traditional Chinese culture.  What role does the traditional Chinese culture play in the process of building a harmonious society?

淨空法師：華人文化，在上一個世紀，一九七０年代，英國湯恩比博士說得非常好，他說「解決二十一世紀社會問題，只有中國孔孟學說跟大乘佛法」。大乘佛法也在中國。這句話講得非常非常有道理，但是一般人也是疏忽了，我想疏忽的原因多半是解讀錯誤。

V. M. Chin Kung:  As for [the role] of Chinese culture, in the last century, during the 1970’s, Dr. Arnold Toynbee put it well by saying that “only the teachings of Confucius and Mencius, and Mahayana Buddhism can solve the social problems of the 21st century.”  Mahayana Buddhism is practiced in China.  Dr. Toynbee’s comment is a truism but ignored by the public.  I think, the reason for such neglect was greatly due to misinterpretation. 

這樁事情，我曾經，二００五年、０六年訪問倫敦，倫敦是歐洲漢學中心，他們的一批學生研究中國儒釋道，他能夠讀中國書的原本，參考古代的這些資料，我看到非常驚訝。我請教他們，我說你們中國文言文學了多久？告訴我，三年。這不難，三年能夠學得那麼好，所以讓我感到很驚訝。

I mentioned this matter, in 2005, or 2006, during my visit to London, the center of Sinology in Europe.   There, a number of graduate students, studying Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism, can read the original ancient Chinese text as research material; to my great surprise.  I politely asked them how long did it take for them to learn the classical Chinese.  They told me: “Three years.”  It is not difficult [to learn Chinese for three years], but to learn it so well [as to be able to read classical Chinese] gave me a great surprise.

我就向他請教：湯恩比的話，這你們英國人，你們相信嗎？他們對著我笑，不回答我。我等了幾分鐘，沒有答應的。我反過來說，難道湯恩比說錯了嗎？他也不回答。最後我說你們很聰明，既不贊成，也不反對。

I then politely asked them: “As an Englishman, do you believe in the comment made by Dr. Toynbee?”  They smiled at me but did not answer me.  I waited for several minutes and still without any answer.  Then I asked the opposite question: “Is Dr. Toynbee wrong?”  Again, no one answered. Finally, I said: “You are all very clever, neither agree nor disagree.”

我說，你要問我怎麼看法，我說湯恩比的話說得非常好，說得正確。什麼原因？你們今天解讀有問題。提到孔孟學說，一定想到四書五經、十三經，他都點頭；說到大乘，一定《華嚴》、《法華》、《般若》這些大經大論，都點頭。這些東西你們在研究，你們拿這個寫博士論文，我說今天社會這個亂象沒法子解決，儒也不能解決，道也不能解決。

I said that if you asked my opinion, I would say that Dr. Toynbee’s comment was great and with precision.  Why?  You cannot answer my questions because your misinterpreted [Confucianism and Mahayana Buddhism].  Today, when anyone mentions “Confucianism” the first thing that comes to mind is the Confucian cannons, such as the Four Books, Five Classics, and the Thirteen Classics.  They all nodded.  If the word “Mahayana Buddhism” is mentioned, people would think of the great sutras such as Avatamsaka Sutra, The Lotus Sutra and Mahaprajnaparamita Sutra.  They nodded again.  All these Cannons and Sutras are for the erudite academics.  You study them for research, for your doctoral degrees.  [To learn Buddhism, Confucianism, or Taoism this way,] I said, none of them can solve the chaotic situation of Today’s society.

我說這些東西是儒跟佛的花果，這是最上層的東西，現在底下得的病，這上頭東西解決不了。那你有沒有想到，這花果從哪來的？花從枝生的，枝從條生的，條從幹生的，幹從本生的，本從根生的，你們有沒有想到這個？沒想到。

I explained that these sutras and cannons are the flowers and fruits, or the pinnacles, of Confucianism and Buddhism.  But the root of the fruit tree, or the bottom level, is ill.  The flowers and the fruits cannot cure the illness in the root.  I asked them: “Have you ever thought about where do the flowers and the fruits come from? The flowers come from the branches, the branches come from the stem, and the stem comes from the root.  Have you ever ponder on this point?  I guess not.”